WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.530 align:middle line:90% 00:00:08.530 --> 00:00:12.640 align:middle line:84% I'm talking to Dr Arietta Slade, Clinical Professor at the Yale 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.140 align:middle line:90% Child Study Centre. 00:00:15.140 --> 00:00:18.250 align:middle line:84% Arietta, in this course, we've been thinking about the way 00:00:18.250 --> 00:00:22.560 align:middle line:84% in which the parents' emotional and cognitive mind influences 00:00:22.560 --> 00:00:25.380 align:middle line:90% the infant self organisation. 00:00:25.380 --> 00:00:27.400 align:middle line:84% Can you tell us a little bit about what 00:00:27.400 --> 00:00:29.910 align:middle line:90% reflective functioning is? 00:00:29.910 --> 00:00:32.830 align:middle line:84% Yes, I can and I just want to start 00:00:32.830 --> 00:00:37.810 align:middle line:84% by saying that it sounds much more complicated than it is. 00:00:37.810 --> 00:00:40.400 align:middle line:84% And it's actually a very simple idea 00:00:40.400 --> 00:00:46.340 align:middle line:84% and it refers to a parent or a person 00:00:46.340 --> 00:00:49.850 align:middle line:84% thinking about what's going on in the mind of the person 00:00:49.850 --> 00:00:53.200 align:middle line:84% with whom they're communicating or thinking about what's 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:55.430 align:middle line:90% going on in their own mind. 00:00:55.430 --> 00:00:57.940 align:middle line:84% So we speak about it as the capacity 00:00:57.940 --> 00:01:02.220 align:middle line:84% to imagine the mind of the other or imagine what's 00:01:02.220 --> 00:01:04.367 align:middle line:90% going on in one's own mind. 00:01:04.367 --> 00:01:06.200 align:middle line:84% So would you like me to give you an example? 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:06.490 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:01:06.490 --> 00:01:07.490 align:middle line:90% That would be good. 00:01:07.490 --> 00:01:13.090 align:middle line:84% So an example of this would be, if a mother comes home from 00:01:13.090 --> 00:01:15.910 align:middle line:84% a long day at work and her child comes up to her and starts 00:01:15.910 --> 00:01:18.580 align:middle line:84% crying and clinging to her skirt, 00:01:18.580 --> 00:01:21.500 align:middle line:84% she might on the one hand, be primarily concerned with 00:01:21.500 --> 00:01:24.650 align:middle line:90% stopping that behaviour. 00:01:24.650 --> 00:01:26.980 align:middle line:90% I've had a long day. 00:01:26.980 --> 00:01:28.560 align:middle line:90% Please stop that. 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:31.400 align:middle line:84% And another approach would be to... 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:33.240 align:middle line:84% and it often happens intuitively. 00:01:33.240 --> 00:01:36.300 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's not something that you teach someone necessarily. 00:01:36.300 --> 00:01:38.900 align:middle line:84% But a mother might think to herself, or not 00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:43.330 align:middle line:84% even at a conscious level, respond with an awareness 00:01:43.330 --> 00:01:45.320 align:middle line:84% that what's going on in her child's mind 00:01:45.320 --> 00:01:48.840 align:middle line:84% is the she's missed her, that she's happy that she's home, 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:51.230 align:middle line:84% but that she was unhappy that she was gone. 00:01:51.230 --> 00:01:53.580 align:middle line:84% And so her crying is an expression of that. 00:01:53.580 --> 00:01:55.580 align:middle line:84% And rather than stopping the crying, 00:01:55.580 --> 00:01:58.260 align:middle line:84% she might want to try to meet the need of, 'I've missed you 00:01:58.260 --> 00:01:58.830 align:middle line:90% all day. 00:01:58.830 --> 00:02:00.100 align:middle line:90% I need a hug. 00:02:00.100 --> 00:02:02.770 align:middle line:84% I need to be reassured that you're really back' 00:02:02.770 --> 00:02:05.900 align:middle line:84% and to just take the baby in her arms for a few moments, 00:02:05.900 --> 00:02:07.990 align:middle line:84% let's say, and give her a hug and a kiss 00:02:07.990 --> 00:02:10.050 align:middle line:84% and maybe snuggle with her for a minute 00:02:10.050 --> 00:02:11.910 align:middle line:90% before she puts her down. 00:02:11.910 --> 00:02:15.970 align:middle line:84% And that is much more likely to calm the baby than if she 00:02:15.970 --> 00:02:17.590 align:middle line:90% were to say, stop it. 00:02:17.590 --> 00:02:18.420 align:middle line:90% Cut it out. 00:02:18.420 --> 00:02:22.540 align:middle line:84% I've had a long day at work, and I need to go cook dinner. 00:02:22.540 --> 00:02:24.190 align:middle line:84% And just that awareness of what's 00:02:24.190 --> 00:02:27.900 align:middle line:84% going on in the child's mind the awareness that the child is 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:31.550 align:middle line:84% probably a little needy, a little hungry, a little 00:02:31.550 --> 00:02:36.150 align:middle line:84% unhappy, and happy to see her mum just to meet those 00:02:36.150 --> 00:02:38.260 align:middle line:84% needs and just respond to them briefly. 00:02:38.260 --> 00:02:41.440 align:middle line:84% It's not necessarily a big half hour response. 00:02:41.440 --> 00:02:43.660 align:middle line:84% Just an awareness that the child has 00:02:43.660 --> 00:02:45.770 align:middle line:84% had these feelings and thoughts and longings 00:02:45.770 --> 00:02:48.250 align:middle line:90% and to respond to them. 00:02:48.250 --> 00:02:51.410 align:middle line:84% And that's really a good definition 00:02:51.410 --> 00:02:54.320 align:middle line:84% of thinking about what's inside, rather than just trying 00:02:54.320 --> 00:02:56.160 align:middle line:90% to control what's outside. 00:02:56.160 --> 00:02:56.840 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:02:56.840 --> 00:02:57.975 align:middle line:90% That's really helpful. 00:02:57.975 --> 00:03:00.100 align:middle line:84% So tell us a little bit about some of your research 00:03:00.100 --> 00:03:03.300 align:middle line:84% because your research suggests that reflective functioning 00:03:03.300 --> 00:03:07.170 align:middle line:84% in some way affects parenting behaviour or particularly 00:03:07.170 --> 00:03:10.270 align:middle line:84% interested in parenting behaviours around infancy. 00:03:10.270 --> 00:03:11.020 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:03:11.020 --> 00:03:15.100 align:middle line:84% Well, I think as in the example I just gave you in which 00:03:15.100 --> 00:03:19.690 align:middle line:84% a mother responds to the child's crying by trying to imagine 00:03:19.690 --> 00:03:21.640 align:middle line:84% what's causing the crying, what's going 00:03:21.640 --> 00:03:25.500 align:middle line:84% on in the child's mind, her behaviour is going to be 00:03:25.500 --> 00:03:28.860 align:middle line:84% in response to the child's thoughts and feelings, 00:03:28.860 --> 00:03:31.500 align:middle line:84% rather than simply an effort to control and stop 00:03:31.500 --> 00:03:32.490 align:middle line:90% the behaviours. 00:03:32.490 --> 00:03:36.410 align:middle line:84% And ironically, responding to what's going on inside 00:03:36.410 --> 00:03:39.820 align:middle line:84% of the child is more likely to stop the behaviours than just 00:03:39.820 --> 00:03:42.460 align:middle line:84% trying to control the child's behaviour. 00:03:42.460 --> 00:03:44.859 align:middle line:84% For instance, if she says when she's come home from work 00:03:44.859 --> 00:03:46.400 align:middle line:84% and the child is crying, if she says, 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:50.270 align:middle line:84% stop crying, that's likely to upset the child more. 00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:52.350 align:middle line:84% Whereas if she says, 'oh you've missed me. 00:03:52.350 --> 00:03:53.350 align:middle line:90% I'm glad to see you. 00:03:53.350 --> 00:03:55.115 align:middle line:84% Let me give you a hug' in response 00:03:55.115 --> 00:03:57.350 align:middle line:84% to the child's need, that is actually 00:03:57.350 --> 00:04:01.100 align:middle line:84% likely to calm the child and sooth the child, in which case 00:04:01.100 --> 00:04:03.990 align:middle line:84% she'll be much more likely to go on and entertain herself 00:04:03.990 --> 00:04:06.410 align:middle line:84% while mum cooks dinner, rather than following 00:04:06.410 --> 00:04:09.360 align:middle line:84% mum around the kitchen and complaining at her, or father. 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:12.220 align:middle line:84% Obviously this equally happens with dads. 00:04:12.220 --> 00:04:12.830 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:04:12.830 --> 00:04:14.413 align:middle line:84% So in this course, we've been thinking 00:04:14.413 --> 00:04:16.300 align:middle line:90% a little bit about attachment. 00:04:16.300 --> 00:04:19.529 align:middle line:84% What does your research tell us about the relationship 00:04:19.529 --> 00:04:22.950 align:middle line:84% between reflective functioning and the likelihood of a child 00:04:22.950 --> 00:04:25.200 align:middle line:90% being securely attached? 00:04:25.200 --> 00:04:28.220 align:middle line:84% Well, as I'm sure your students know by now, 00:04:28.220 --> 00:04:31.270 align:middle line:84% secure attachment means two things. 00:04:31.270 --> 00:04:33.720 align:middle line:84% It means that you feel safe in seeking comfort 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:36.510 align:middle line:84% when you need it and you feel safe in exploring 00:04:36.510 --> 00:04:38.510 align:middle line:84% the world knowing that somebody will essentially 00:04:38.510 --> 00:04:40.170 align:middle line:90% have your back. 00:04:40.170 --> 00:04:44.180 align:middle line:84% And what happens to a child when they have the experience 00:04:44.180 --> 00:04:46.930 align:middle line:84% repeatedly over the course of infancy, 00:04:46.930 --> 00:04:50.500 align:middle line:84% that mum is there, that mum understands what's going on 00:04:50.500 --> 00:04:53.760 align:middle line:84% in their minds, that mum meets what's going on in their minds, 00:04:53.760 --> 00:04:55.370 align:middle line:84% then they're much more likely to feel 00:04:55.370 --> 00:04:58.640 align:middle line:84% safe in coming to mum or dad for comfort 00:04:58.640 --> 00:05:01.850 align:middle line:84% and much more likely to feel safe in exploring. 00:05:01.850 --> 00:05:04.660 align:middle line:84% Because in a sense, they know that mum or dad is there 00:05:04.660 --> 00:05:08.210 align:middle line:84% for them when they go out into the world. 00:05:08.210 --> 00:05:13.010 align:middle line:84% And so that a sense of security comes from feeling known. 00:05:13.010 --> 00:05:16.680 align:middle line:84% Not feeling known is a very lonely feeling, 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:20.070 align:middle line:84% but feeling understood and feeling that other people are 00:05:20.070 --> 00:05:23.640 align:middle line:84% curious about what's going in your mind, interested in it, 00:05:23.640 --> 00:05:25.210 align:middle line:90% makes you feel safer. 00:05:25.210 --> 00:05:27.740 align:middle line:84% It makes you feel, again, not alone 00:05:27.740 --> 00:05:29.730 align:middle line:84% and makes it more likely that you 00:05:29.730 --> 00:05:33.530 align:middle line:84% will see the world as an opportunity 00:05:33.530 --> 00:05:37.430 align:middle line:84% rather than a place of potential fear or danger 00:05:37.430 --> 00:05:41.770 align:middle line:84% because you know you have, if you will, that person with you. 00:05:41.770 --> 00:05:44.250 align:middle line:84% So can you tell us a little bit about the process? 00:05:44.250 --> 00:05:47.360 align:middle line:84% Because I've talked a little bit about marked mirroring 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:49.220 align:middle line:84% and marked mirroring is the process 00:05:49.220 --> 00:05:52.230 align:middle line:84% by which parents convey to the baby 00:05:52.230 --> 00:05:55.520 align:middle line:84% that they've understood what it is they're feeling. 00:05:55.520 --> 00:05:57.650 align:middle line:84% Can you tell us a little bit about that? 00:05:57.650 --> 00:06:03.330 align:middle line:84% Well, just to pick up on mother coming 00:06:03.330 --> 00:06:07.020 align:middle line:84% home from work after a long day and the baby's crying. 00:06:07.020 --> 00:06:14.490 align:middle line:84% And marked mirroring would be to respond by, 'Honey, 00:06:14.490 --> 00:06:15.500 align:middle line:90% did you miss me? 00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:16.240 align:middle line:90% You missed me? 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:20.050 align:middle line:84% Oh, you're sad, maybe you really missed me, 00:06:20.050 --> 00:06:21.980 align:middle line:90% let me give you a hug'. 00:06:21.980 --> 00:06:26.120 align:middle line:84% That mother is, in effect, holding up 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:28.370 align:middle line:84% the infant's response, probably mimicking 00:06:28.370 --> 00:06:33.870 align:middle line:84% her facial expression, probably showing some unhappiness 00:06:33.870 --> 00:06:36.240 align:middle line:84% in her face and her eyes, but not 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:39.900 align:middle line:84% doing it in a way that's exactly the same as the baby, 00:06:39.900 --> 00:06:41.590 align:middle line:84% but actually doing it in a way that 00:06:41.590 --> 00:06:45.360 align:middle line:84% makes it a little bit bigger, a little bit more explicit, 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:47.550 align:middle line:84% if you will, a little bit more marked 00:06:47.550 --> 00:06:51.600 align:middle line:84% so that the baby in effect, has her experience handed back 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:52.500 align:middle line:90% to her. 00:06:52.500 --> 00:06:55.320 align:middle line:84% In a way, someone is framing it for her. 00:06:55.320 --> 00:06:56.670 align:middle line:90% This is what I'm feeling. 00:06:56.670 --> 00:06:57.830 align:middle line:90% This is what's going on. 00:06:57.830 --> 00:06:59.520 align:middle line:90% I'm happy to see my mum. 00:06:59.520 --> 00:07:01.500 align:middle line:90% I'm sad she was away. 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:03.490 align:middle line:90% I'm a little cranky. 00:07:03.490 --> 00:07:04.740 align:middle line:90% That's what I'm communicating. 00:07:04.740 --> 00:07:08.200 align:middle line:84% And now in a way, I understand it even better because it's 00:07:08.200 --> 00:07:10.250 align:middle line:90% been represented to me. 00:07:10.250 --> 00:07:13.930 align:middle line:84% It's been made coherent and explicit to me. 00:07:13.930 --> 00:07:17.600 align:middle line:84% And I want to emphasise that this is not something 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.020 align:middle line:84% that parents think about in a laborious way 00:07:20.020 --> 00:07:23.920 align:middle line:84% as they come home from work because no one would ever 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:28.190 align:middle line:84% survive a day experiencing it that way. 00:07:28.190 --> 00:07:31.190 align:middle line:84% Rather it's something that happens intuitively. 00:07:31.190 --> 00:07:34.740 align:middle line:84% It's something that happens out of the relationship. 00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:36.890 align:middle line:84% It's something that happens out of curiosity 00:07:36.890 --> 00:07:40.120 align:middle line:84% about the other person and openness to the other person. 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:43.950 align:middle line:84% And when your highly stressed or don't 00:07:43.950 --> 00:07:45.850 align:middle line:84% know where you're going to get your next meal 00:07:45.850 --> 00:07:49.670 align:middle line:84% or don't know about the security of your housing, 00:07:49.670 --> 00:07:53.020 align:middle line:84% that kind of relax engagement with another person's mind 00:07:53.020 --> 00:07:56.520 align:middle line:84% is more difficult. That kind of attitude of openness 00:07:56.520 --> 00:07:58.070 align:middle line:84% and flexibility is more difficult. 00:07:58.070 --> 00:08:03.580 align:middle line:84% So that you may in fact be too stressed in that moment 00:08:03.580 --> 00:08:07.420 align:middle line:84% to take on the child's experience, if you will, 00:08:07.420 --> 00:08:10.080 align:middle line:90% and that's when trouble starts. 00:08:10.080 --> 00:08:12.340 align:middle line:84% So are there wider sorts of factors 00:08:12.340 --> 00:08:15.260 align:middle line:84% that are associated with a parent's ability 00:08:15.260 --> 00:08:18.575 align:middle line:84% to be high or low in reflective functioning? 00:08:18.575 --> 00:08:21.230 align:middle line:90% 00:08:21.230 --> 00:08:28.090 align:middle line:84% Well, you know, I think that the less a parent 00:08:28.090 --> 00:08:33.200 align:middle line:84% is in or approaching a state of fight or flight, 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.669 align:middle line:84% a state of being stressed really and fight or flight 00:08:36.669 --> 00:08:40.159 align:middle line:84% is kind of the most extreme form of feeling stressed. 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:44.650 align:middle line:84% But if you will, to have yourself emotionally 00:08:44.650 --> 00:08:47.880 align:middle line:84% and cognitively online for another person, 00:08:47.880 --> 00:08:50.310 align:middle line:84% to have yourself cognitively and emotionally available 00:08:50.310 --> 00:08:54.290 align:middle line:84% to another person, you can't be in a physical state 00:08:54.290 --> 00:08:59.320 align:middle line:84% of being highly aroused, highly stressed, dysregulated. 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:01.780 align:middle line:84% Because the more you're in that state, 00:09:01.780 --> 00:09:04.630 align:middle line:84% the more your whole body and your whole mind 00:09:04.630 --> 00:09:08.170 align:middle line:84% is geared toward just surviving the moment, if you will. 00:09:08.170 --> 00:09:11.640 align:middle line:84% And we all know this from the 25 times 00:09:11.640 --> 00:09:13.460 align:middle line:84% we came from work when our children were 00:09:13.460 --> 00:09:17.950 align:middle line:84% little and clamoured after us, and we said, 'go watch TV' 00:09:17.950 --> 00:09:19.680 align:middle line:84% or 'go sit down' or 'get out of my way' 00:09:19.680 --> 00:09:20.930 align:middle line:90% because we were in that state. 00:09:20.930 --> 00:09:23.910 align:middle line:84% I mean, that's a very common experience. 00:09:23.910 --> 00:09:27.560 align:middle line:84% But when it overrides the interaction 00:09:27.560 --> 00:09:32.240 align:middle line:84% on a regular basis, when it overrides a parent's capacity 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:34.356 align:middle line:84% to be present for the child or for themselves, 00:09:34.356 --> 00:09:36.480 align:middle line:84% you know, to say, 'well I've had a really hard day. 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:40.817 align:middle line:84% I'm still mad at my boss, and I need to sit and collect myself 00:09:40.817 --> 00:09:41.400 align:middle line:90% for a minute'. 00:09:41.400 --> 00:09:44.790 align:middle line:84% That kind of awareness is challenged 00:09:44.790 --> 00:09:47.820 align:middle line:90% by high levels of stress. 00:09:47.820 --> 00:09:51.990 align:middle line:84% And it's really as if the mind... 00:09:51.990 --> 00:09:54.910 align:middle line:84% once you're in a sort of activated state, 00:09:54.910 --> 00:09:57.250 align:middle line:84% different parts of the brain are engaged 00:09:57.250 --> 00:09:59.150 align:middle line:84% than when you're in a reflective state, when 00:09:59.150 --> 00:10:01.840 align:middle line:90% you're in a open curious state. 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.590 align:middle line:84% And obviously it's impossible to be in that open curious state 00:10:05.590 --> 00:10:10.770 align:middle line:84% all the time, but what we try to get parents aware of 00:10:10.770 --> 00:10:13.110 align:middle line:84% and what we try to be aware of as clinicians 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:16.590 align:middle line:84% when we can also be an inactivated state, is how 00:10:16.590 --> 00:10:19.270 align:middle line:84% to calm that down enough so that we can be present, 00:10:19.270 --> 00:10:22.180 align:middle line:84% emotionally present, curious, flexible and open. 00:10:22.180 --> 00:10:22.990 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:10:22.990 --> 00:10:25.290 align:middle line:84% So my next question was really about what 00:10:25.290 --> 00:10:28.280 align:middle line:84% we can do then to support parents 00:10:28.280 --> 00:10:29.900 align:middle line:84% who are having difficulty in terms 00:10:29.900 --> 00:10:32.570 align:middle line:90% of reflective functioning? 00:10:32.570 --> 00:10:37.150 align:middle line:84% Well, I think what you see in parents who are really 00:10:37.150 --> 00:10:41.350 align:middle line:84% struggling with this, is first of all, an awareness 00:10:41.350 --> 00:10:45.820 align:middle line:84% that the child has thoughts and feelings of their own. 00:10:45.820 --> 00:10:50.480 align:middle line:84% Many parents who are struggling, when you speak to them 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:53.560 align:middle line:84% about the child or about themselves, 00:10:53.560 --> 00:10:59.930 align:middle line:84% they don't use emotion words like, feel, angry, sad, 00:10:59.930 --> 00:11:01.210 align:middle line:90% frightened. 00:11:01.210 --> 00:11:04.270 align:middle line:84% Those words are more or less absent from their vocabulary 00:11:04.270 --> 00:11:06.920 align:middle line:90% or happy, joyful, curious. 00:11:06.920 --> 00:11:10.400 align:middle line:84% None of those states or even the states 00:11:10.400 --> 00:11:13.710 align:middle line:90% like, he knows, he wants. 00:11:13.710 --> 00:11:16.900 align:middle line:90% States of desire, of intention. 00:11:16.900 --> 00:11:18.830 align:middle line:90% He's going to go do this. 00:11:18.830 --> 00:11:19.400 align:middle line:90% I'm sorry. 00:11:19.400 --> 00:11:20.900 align:middle line:90% That's not a great example. 00:11:20.900 --> 00:11:21.980 align:middle line:90% He wants this. 00:11:21.980 --> 00:11:24.810 align:middle line:90% He wants a toy. 00:11:24.810 --> 00:11:26.800 align:middle line:84% When you don't have that awareness of the mind 00:11:26.800 --> 00:11:32.400 align:middle line:84% of the other, you get focused much more on behaviour. 00:11:32.400 --> 00:11:34.310 align:middle line:84% He's always getting into trouble. 00:11:34.310 --> 00:11:35.130 align:middle line:90% He's stubborn. 00:11:35.130 --> 00:11:36.370 align:middle line:90% He's pig-headed. 00:11:36.370 --> 00:11:38.330 align:middle line:84% Those are not ways of appreciating 00:11:38.330 --> 00:11:41.130 align:middle line:90% what's going on in the child. 00:11:41.130 --> 00:11:44.010 align:middle line:84% And it can be very difficult to get a parent kind of off 00:11:44.010 --> 00:11:48.920 align:middle line:84% the dime of stopping behaviour and into a mode of even being 00:11:48.920 --> 00:11:52.710 align:middle line:84% for a moment open and sympathetic to what's going 00:11:52.710 --> 00:11:53.690 align:middle line:90% on inside a child. 00:11:53.690 --> 00:11:57.320 align:middle line:84% And sometimes parents will say, 'Oh! 00:11:57.320 --> 00:12:02.000 align:middle line:84% You mean if I really can attend to what's going on with him, 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:03.720 align:middle line:90% he might do what I want?' 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:07.910 align:middle line:84% In other words, they begin to appreciate that if they're able 00:12:07.910 --> 00:12:11.380 align:middle line:84% to slow down their own reactions enough and not respond too 00:12:11.380 --> 00:12:13.920 align:middle line:84% quickly and not respond out of stress, 00:12:13.920 --> 00:12:17.500 align:middle line:84% that actually they can have a more satisfying engaged time 00:12:17.500 --> 00:12:21.100 align:middle line:84% with the child than if they're really just trying to control 00:12:21.100 --> 00:12:22.230 align:middle line:90% behaviour. 00:12:22.230 --> 00:12:23.850 align:middle line:90% And this can be a process. 00:12:23.850 --> 00:12:25.850 align:middle line:84% You know, it's not something that you can just 00:12:25.850 --> 00:12:29.200 align:middle line:84% put parents in a parenting class and teach them this. 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.120 align:middle line:84% You often really need to engage them, first, 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:36.610 align:middle line:84% in a relationship with a clinician 00:12:36.610 --> 00:12:40.160 align:middle line:84% or a teacher or someone who's calming and safe to them, 00:12:40.160 --> 00:12:44.180 align:middle line:84% and then they can begin to have these kinds of experiences 00:12:44.180 --> 00:12:46.910 align:middle line:90% of curiosity about the other. 00:12:46.910 --> 00:12:48.340 align:middle line:90% That was very helpful. 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:49.560 align:middle line:90% Thank you very much. 00:12:49.560 --> 00:12:50.480 align:middle line:90% You're welcome. 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.330 align:middle line:90% My pleasure. 00:12:52.330 --> 00:12:58.538 align:middle line:90%