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Hello and welcome.

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This is the first
in a series of films

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where we'll be
talking to experts

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from different disciplines about
what the study of propaganda

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and ideology means for them.

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And our first guest
today is Michael Freeden

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from the University
of Nottingham.

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Hello Michael, and welcome.

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Hello.

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Now, this course is about
the study of propaganda

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and ideology in everyday life.

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And so I'd like to
start by asking you

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how you understand the
relationship between these two

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concepts of propaganda
on the one hand

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and ideology on the other.

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Well, propaganda is
a very specific way

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of disseminating an ideology.

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It is very persuasive.

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It is very immediate.

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It targets specific groups.

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It targets masses,
in particular.

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And it looks for a quick fix.

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It needs to have an immediate
impact on its audience.

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So the way that propaganda is
designed is to maximise its

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impact on the audience.

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The impact may be visual.

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It may be oral.

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And it may be written,
but one way or the other,

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it has to be very brief.

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It has to be highly selective.

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And it has to be persuasive,
both in the sense of rhetoric

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and in the sense of the
reasonableness, or the sense

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that the message imparts.

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When people think about
ideologies in particular,

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they would probably
tend to think

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about things like liberalism
and conservatism and socialism.

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And each of these
ideology families

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maybe have different ways of
trying to communicate the ideas

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that they're trying to promote.

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So when we're looking
at political thought,

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how do we best identify whether
something we're looking at

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is liberal, perhaps, or
conservative or socialist?

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How do we distinguish
these different traditions?

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Well, if we looking at liberal
discourse, at liberal language,

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we'd be looking for the
certain signs as follows.

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We'd be looking for a
particular importance that

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is attached to the individual
and to individualism,

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a particular idea of the
importance of liberty

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and the distinction
between public and private,

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and a very strong
sense of human rights

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and of the Constitution
arrangements in a society.

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When we look at conservatism,
we will be looking mainly

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at tradition, at
issues of continuity,

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at the importance
of history and time.

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Looking at society as
located in a long sequence

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of events that does
not require or does not

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need rupture or sudden change,
but rather gradual change.

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If we look at socialism,
we're looking basically

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at human interaction
and what happens

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to an individual as a
member of a community,

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and how communities interact
and how communities wish

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to pursue certain common aims.

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It's the commonality
that I think

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is at the heart of socialism.

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Commonality plus a very strong
sense of human equality.

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So would it be
fair, then, to say

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that these ideology
traditions, they

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talk about the same kinds
of political concepts.

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So you mentioned individuality
and equality and order

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and so on.

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But they would understand those
concepts in different ways,

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and maybe treat some
of them as being

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particularly
important or central

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and others as more peripheral.

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Yes.

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So if we have an
analogy with furniture,

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when you open the liberal
room, you find liberalism

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in the centre of the room.

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And when you open the
conservative room,

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you'll find tradition at
the centre of the room.

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But nevertheless, conservatives
have some respect for liberty,

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or perhaps for human
liberties in the plural.

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But it will not be as
centrally positioned

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as it is in the case
of liberal thinking.

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The third element I'd
like to ask you about

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is ideological change.

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Presumably, people who would
have described themselves

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as liberals in the 19th
century in Britain, say,

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would not be saying the
same things as liberals

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in Britain in the 20th century.

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And also somebody described
as a conservative in America

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right now may not be
saying the same things

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as somebody in France who would
be described as a conservative.

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So there's a question
about ideological change

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through time and across space.

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Could you say
something about how

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we should understand
these processes

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of ideological change?

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Yes.

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Well, ideologies are far
more flexible and fluid

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than some people imagine.

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And although you may have
a more durable set of ideas

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in the centre of an
ideology, the environment,

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the periphery of an ideology
changes all the time.

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So that changes in historical
events, technology,

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changes in ideas, or even
earthquakes or famines

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may impact on the ideology
and philtre their way back

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into the core and
change it subtly.

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Indeed, if an ideology
were completely rigid,

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it would crack under pressure.

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It is precisely the
flexibility, the ability

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to adapt to changing
circumstances

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and to re-read the
events around them, that

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make ideology relevant and
that ensure their longevity.

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And could you give an
example, perhaps, of a way

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an ideology has
changed in reaction

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to events in that kind of way?

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Well, in the 19th
century, private property

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was central to liberal ideas.

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But by the end of
the 19th century,

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a much more social understanding
of human interdependence

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began to develop.

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And private property,
though it still

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is one of the important
beliefs of liberalism,

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was sidelined relative to
welfare, human welfare,

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human well being.

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And one of the
interesting things

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that happened at the
end of the 19th century

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was that people became much
more aware of human fragility

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and of the need for assistance
from others in order

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to develop yourself.

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Not in order to be
developed by others.

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So the liberal target
of self-development

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was maintained.

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But it was realised that you
sometimes can't manage things

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on your own because of
hunger, poverty, unemployment,

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and one needs external
assistance or mutual aid.

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And so liberalism became
much more sociable doctrine

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than it was in the
19th century when

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it was more assertive,
aggressively individualistic.

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Thank you very much, Michael.

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That brings us to the end of
this particular interview.

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These themes around
ideological change,

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both time and through
space, are something

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we'll be exploring later
on during this course.

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