WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.367 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:00:03.367 --> 00:00:08.420 align:middle line:90% 00:00:08.420 --> 00:00:09.670 align:middle line:90% ANNA KALBARCZYK: Hi, everyone. 00:00:09.670 --> 00:00:10.900 align:middle line:90% Welcome back. 00:00:10.900 --> 00:00:11.880 align:middle line:90% I'm Anna Kalbarczyk. 00:00:11.880 --> 00:00:15.280 align:middle line:84% And today, I'm joined by Dr. Svea Closser and Dr. Kunle 00:00:15.280 --> 00:00:16.270 align:middle line:90% Alonge. 00:00:16.270 --> 00:00:17.850 align:middle line:84% And we're all faculty at the School 00:00:17.850 --> 00:00:20.430 align:middle line:84% of Public Health, the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg 00:00:20.430 --> 00:00:21.780 align:middle line:90% School of Public Health. 00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:24.480 align:middle line:84% And today, I want to raise a divisive issue 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:26.580 align:middle line:90% and discuss corruption. 00:00:26.580 --> 00:00:28.800 align:middle line:84% Corruption happens in every health system 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:30.370 align:middle line:90% in every country in the world. 00:00:30.370 --> 00:00:32.189 align:middle line:84% It's not just a disease control program 00:00:32.189 --> 00:00:35.520 align:middle line:84% issue or an issue for low and middle income countries. 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:38.460 align:middle line:84% And I know that this topic is very near and dear to Svea. 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:40.140 align:middle line:90% So I'll ask her to start. 00:00:40.140 --> 00:00:42.780 align:middle line:84% From your experience, where does corruption 00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:45.578 align:middle line:84% exist in the health system and why? 00:00:45.578 --> 00:00:47.370 align:middle line:84% SVEA CLOSSER: Well, as you said, corruption 00:00:47.370 --> 00:00:50.040 align:middle line:90% exists in all health systems. 00:00:50.040 --> 00:00:52.140 align:middle line:84% And it exists because there's a lot of money that 00:00:52.140 --> 00:00:53.400 align:middle line:90% flows through health systems. 00:00:53.400 --> 00:00:55.130 align:middle line:84% And so in any health system, there 00:00:55.130 --> 00:00:57.480 align:middle line:84% are going to be people trying to figure out 00:00:57.480 --> 00:01:01.950 align:middle line:84% how they can divert some of that money into their own pockets. 00:01:01.950 --> 00:01:03.870 align:middle line:84% Some people will choose to do that. 00:01:03.870 --> 00:01:05.610 align:middle line:84% Some people will choose not to do that. 00:01:05.610 --> 00:01:08.310 align:middle line:84% But you can say that's probably a human universal, 00:01:08.310 --> 00:01:11.405 align:middle line:84% that anytime you've got people in a system with lots of money 00:01:11.405 --> 00:01:12.780 align:middle line:84% flowing through it, there will be 00:01:12.780 --> 00:01:15.480 align:middle line:84% people looking at trying to get their hands on some 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:18.160 align:middle line:90% of that money. 00:01:18.160 --> 00:01:22.020 align:middle line:84% So when we think about something like the polio program, 00:01:22.020 --> 00:01:24.750 align:middle line:84% it's particularly helpful when thinking about corruption 00:01:24.750 --> 00:01:26.490 align:middle line:84% to look at where the money is flowing, 00:01:26.490 --> 00:01:27.865 align:middle line:84% where it's coming from, and where 00:01:27.865 --> 00:01:30.072 align:middle line:84% it's going, because you can sort of follow 00:01:30.072 --> 00:01:32.280 align:middle line:84% the money to where the corruption is going to happen, 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:33.330 align:middle line:90% right? 00:01:33.330 --> 00:01:35.490 align:middle line:84% So in the polio program, you've got a huge amount 00:01:35.490 --> 00:01:39.030 align:middle line:84% of money, relatively speaking, compared to other diseases, 00:01:39.030 --> 00:01:43.530 align:middle line:84% coming mostly from external donors outside a country 00:01:43.530 --> 00:01:48.350 align:middle line:84% and flowing into health systems that may be quite underfunded. 00:01:48.350 --> 00:01:51.330 align:middle line:84% And so that's the backdrop for thinking about or understanding 00:01:51.330 --> 00:01:53.080 align:middle line:90% corruption in this context. 00:01:53.080 --> 00:01:55.530 align:middle line:84% So it's going to look different than it would, say, 00:01:55.530 --> 00:01:57.330 align:middle line:84% in health system like the United States, 00:01:57.330 --> 00:01:59.940 align:middle line:84% where a lot of the money gets funded through insurance 00:01:59.940 --> 00:02:01.710 align:middle line:90% and reimbursements. 00:02:01.710 --> 00:02:03.240 align:middle line:84% And so you see corruption in places 00:02:03.240 --> 00:02:06.030 align:middle line:84% like pharmaceutical kickback, stuff like that. 00:02:06.030 --> 00:02:08.220 align:middle line:84% So the structure of the funding is 00:02:08.220 --> 00:02:11.910 align:middle line:84% going to shape the way that corruption looks. 00:02:11.910 --> 00:02:14.700 align:middle line:84% And so is it an issue in polio eradication? 00:02:14.700 --> 00:02:16.020 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:02:16.020 --> 00:02:21.150 align:middle line:84% And that is a result of it there being so much money entering 00:02:21.150 --> 00:02:24.690 align:middle line:84% into a system that might not be quite set up 00:02:24.690 --> 00:02:29.246 align:middle line:84% to handle it in a way that can prevent corruption. 00:02:29.246 --> 00:02:31.158 align:middle line:90% OLAKUNLE ALONGE: Yeah. 00:02:31.158 --> 00:02:34.840 align:middle line:84% If I can just chip in, I think the last point, 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:39.150 align:middle line:84% with regards to money coming into systems 00:02:39.150 --> 00:02:41.650 align:middle line:84% or into settings that may not be able to handle 00:02:41.650 --> 00:02:43.900 align:middle line:90% it is really key. 00:02:43.900 --> 00:02:46.430 align:middle line:84% Just as Svea kind of mentioned, the corruption 00:02:46.430 --> 00:02:50.640 align:middle line:84% is at every level, even from the source 00:02:50.640 --> 00:02:53.910 align:middle line:84% where the money is coming from or even in the places where 00:02:53.910 --> 00:02:55.010 align:middle line:90% the money is used. 00:02:55.010 --> 00:02:59.430 align:middle line:84% You'll find inflow of large sum of money 00:02:59.430 --> 00:03:05.016 align:middle line:84% to areas that are deprived and to people that have-- 00:03:05.016 --> 00:03:06.990 align:middle line:84% they've kind of missed a lot of opportunity. 00:03:06.990 --> 00:03:10.980 align:middle line:84% I mean, they don't have the basic necessities. 00:03:10.980 --> 00:03:15.810 align:middle line:84% The natural tendency for human is to seek personal advantages, 00:03:15.810 --> 00:03:16.980 align:middle line:90% even within-- 00:03:16.980 --> 00:03:17.970 align:middle line:90% within those settings. 00:03:17.970 --> 00:03:20.820 align:middle line:84% And people do that to different-- to different 00:03:20.820 --> 00:03:22.360 align:middle line:90% extent. 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.210 align:middle line:84% So it's really important to not just 00:03:24.210 --> 00:03:28.770 align:middle line:84% think about the flow of the resources, 00:03:28.770 --> 00:03:34.110 align:middle line:84% but to also think about the background in terms of 00:03:34.110 --> 00:03:35.595 align:middle line:90% how the money-- 00:03:35.595 --> 00:03:38.960 align:middle line:84% how the money contrasts against the background or the setting 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:41.500 align:middle line:90% in which it's flowing into. 00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:44.220 align:middle line:84% And trying to make sure that the system 00:03:44.220 --> 00:03:46.970 align:middle line:84% is such that it can actually accommodate that. 00:03:46.970 --> 00:03:50.580 align:middle line:84% And the people within the system also 00:03:50.580 --> 00:03:54.348 align:middle line:84% can actually effectively manage the resources. 00:03:54.348 --> 00:03:55.140 align:middle line:90% SVEA CLOSSER: Yeah. 00:03:55.140 --> 00:03:56.260 align:middle line:90% I couldn't agree more. 00:03:56.260 --> 00:03:57.180 align:middle line:90% And I think it's-- 00:03:57.180 --> 00:03:59.640 align:middle line:84% that points to this issue that it's really helpful 00:03:59.640 --> 00:04:03.120 align:middle line:84% to think of corruption not as a moral issue, 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.608 align:middle line:84% but rather as a function of the way the system is set up. 00:04:06.608 --> 00:04:07.650 align:middle line:90% OLAKUNLE ALONGE: Exactly. 00:04:07.650 --> 00:04:09.192 align:middle line:84% SVEA CLOSSER: So when you're thinking 00:04:09.192 --> 00:04:11.250 align:middle line:84% about trying to reduce corruption, 00:04:11.250 --> 00:04:13.710 align:middle line:84% it's not particularly helpful to get 00:04:13.710 --> 00:04:15.840 align:middle line:90% on a moral high horse about it. 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.060 align:middle line:84% It's much more helpful to think about 00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:22.710 align:middle line:84% how is the system structured and why is it 00:04:22.710 --> 00:04:25.070 align:middle line:90% getting used in this way? 00:04:25.070 --> 00:04:26.820 align:middle line:84% ANNA KALBARCZYK: As we talk about systems, 00:04:26.820 --> 00:04:29.700 align:middle line:84% one of the things I recall really emerging from our data 00:04:29.700 --> 00:04:32.070 align:middle line:84% were conversations around accountability systems, 00:04:32.070 --> 00:04:35.705 align:middle line:84% so accountability systems to combat corruption. 00:04:35.705 --> 00:04:37.830 align:middle line:84% But do you think that accountability systems really 00:04:37.830 --> 00:04:41.130 align:middle line:84% do eliminate corruption or maybe sometimes offer 00:04:41.130 --> 00:04:44.190 align:middle line:84% new opportunities for corruption? 00:04:44.190 --> 00:04:46.350 align:middle line:84% OLAKUNLE ALONGE: From my personal experience, 00:04:46.350 --> 00:04:49.530 align:middle line:84% and of course, given my interest on my work in implementation 00:04:49.530 --> 00:04:53.700 align:middle line:84% science, is I see accountability system 00:04:53.700 --> 00:04:57.510 align:middle line:84% as a set of strategies or interventions 00:04:57.510 --> 00:05:02.910 align:middle line:84% to address corruption or to create efficiency 00:05:02.910 --> 00:05:03.965 align:middle line:90% within the system. 00:05:03.965 --> 00:05:06.730 align:middle line:84% It's run for any kind of intervention. 00:05:06.730 --> 00:05:09.840 align:middle line:84% So for you to achieve its objective, 00:05:09.840 --> 00:05:12.180 align:middle line:90% it has to be properly set up. 00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:13.860 align:middle line:84% So if it's not properly set up, then we 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:17.010 align:middle line:84% have the scenario where we have intervention failures. 00:05:17.010 --> 00:05:18.750 align:middle line:84% So I mean, there are things that you 00:05:18.750 --> 00:05:21.960 align:middle line:84% would expect from the accountability system 00:05:21.960 --> 00:05:22.675 align:middle line:90% to include. 00:05:22.675 --> 00:05:25.350 align:middle line:84% And it's obviously participation of the people 00:05:25.350 --> 00:05:26.310 align:middle line:90% that are involved. 00:05:26.310 --> 00:05:29.250 align:middle line:84% Voice, people should be able to speak to the issues 00:05:29.250 --> 00:05:31.880 align:middle line:84% at hand and [? teeth. ?] They should be able to reprimand. 00:05:31.880 --> 00:05:33.130 align:middle line:90% They should be able to punish. 00:05:33.130 --> 00:05:36.780 align:middle line:84% They should be able to control reward and punishment 00:05:36.780 --> 00:05:39.990 align:middle line:84% to ensure that the right action takes place. 00:05:39.990 --> 00:05:43.770 align:middle line:84% So you think about accountability system for polio 00:05:43.770 --> 00:05:48.950 align:middle line:84% program, and you kind of reflect what extent does this really 00:05:48.950 --> 00:05:51.340 align:middle line:84% address all of these key principle? 00:05:51.340 --> 00:05:55.650 align:middle line:84% Put it in another light, how well 00:05:55.650 --> 00:05:59.050 align:middle line:84% does interventions kind of design? 00:05:59.050 --> 00:06:02.730 align:middle line:84% And you will see that it's improbable for you 00:06:02.730 --> 00:06:05.580 align:middle line:84% to design an effective accountability system, 00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:11.610 align:middle line:84% without actually working and join legitimacy from the system 00:06:11.610 --> 00:06:13.890 align:middle line:84% where the accountability intervention is 00:06:13.890 --> 00:06:16.170 align:middle line:90% supposed to take place. 00:06:16.170 --> 00:06:18.940 align:middle line:84% And that's some places where you find a disconnect. 00:06:18.940 --> 00:06:22.950 align:middle line:84% So you will have mechanisms that are a little bit [? foreign, ?] 00:06:22.950 --> 00:06:25.490 align:middle line:90% imposed to a system. 00:06:25.490 --> 00:06:27.930 align:middle line:84% And that in itself can begin to see-- 00:06:27.930 --> 00:06:29.970 align:middle line:90% show to you why some-- 00:06:29.970 --> 00:06:32.800 align:middle line:84% some of this mechanism might-- might have-- 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:35.910 align:middle line:84% might not produce the effect that you want to see. 00:06:35.910 --> 00:06:38.010 align:middle line:84% And again, the same way you can look at it 00:06:38.010 --> 00:06:39.300 align:middle line:90% as implementation failure. 00:06:39.300 --> 00:06:42.223 align:middle line:84% So you could actually have a perfect system. 00:06:42.223 --> 00:06:43.890 align:middle line:84% It has all of the transparency measures, 00:06:43.890 --> 00:06:46.100 align:middle line:84% all of the participation, voice, [? teeth, ?] 00:06:46.100 --> 00:06:47.430 align:middle line:90% and everything is there. 00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:51.830 align:middle line:84% But it's not effectively implemented, 00:06:51.830 --> 00:06:56.070 align:middle line:84% either because people don't have the incentive 00:06:56.070 --> 00:06:58.720 align:middle line:90% to implement it as such. 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.980 align:middle line:84% So again, you really cannot diverse the design 00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:07.290 align:middle line:84% of the accountability system and the implementation of it from 00:07:07.290 --> 00:07:09.660 align:middle line:84% the settings and the context in which you're supposed 00:07:09.660 --> 00:07:10.560 align:middle line:90% to operate. 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:12.018 align:middle line:84% And I think the extent to which you 00:07:12.018 --> 00:07:13.710 align:middle line:84% can do this will determine whether it's 00:07:13.710 --> 00:07:16.650 align:middle line:84% going to be effective in addressing corruption 00:07:16.650 --> 00:07:19.090 align:middle line:84% or whether you're going to create opportunity for someone 00:07:19.090 --> 00:07:21.168 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] those incentives. 00:07:21.168 --> 00:07:21.960 align:middle line:90% SVEA CLOSSER: Yeah. 00:07:21.960 --> 00:07:22.830 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:07:22.830 --> 00:07:25.650 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think sometimes the tendency 00:07:25.650 --> 00:07:30.420 align:middle line:84% is when managers know there's corruption in a system 00:07:30.420 --> 00:07:32.700 align:middle line:84% to try to implement more paperwork to try 00:07:32.700 --> 00:07:36.140 align:middle line:90% to follow this flow of money. 00:07:36.140 --> 00:07:40.350 align:middle line:84% And that can be effective in the kind of context 00:07:40.350 --> 00:07:42.060 align:middle line:90% that Kunle is talking about. 00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:45.747 align:middle line:84% But if you only introduce the paperwork, what can happen 00:07:45.747 --> 00:07:48.330 align:middle line:84% is you just introduce-- you get another way for people to game 00:07:48.330 --> 00:07:48.960 align:middle line:90% the system. 00:07:48.960 --> 00:07:50.210 align:middle line:90% OLAKUNLE ALONGE: That's right. 00:07:50.210 --> 00:07:52.050 align:middle line:84% SVEA CLOSSER: So you can actually 00:07:52.050 --> 00:07:54.690 align:middle line:90% add in additional opportunities. 00:07:54.690 --> 00:07:59.040 align:middle line:84% And a bored person at the very bottom 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:02.430 align:middle line:84% of a health hierarchy with not a very interesting job 00:08:02.430 --> 00:08:06.420 align:middle line:84% may have a lot of time to think about ways to gain 00:08:06.420 --> 00:08:08.510 align:middle line:90% transparency mechanisms. 00:08:08.510 --> 00:08:11.345 align:middle line:90% So adding paperwork as a level-- 00:08:11.345 --> 00:08:13.470 align:middle line:84% there's a lot of anthropological work on this right 00:08:13.470 --> 00:08:17.940 align:middle line:84% now, that adding paperwork as a transparency mechanism 00:08:17.940 --> 00:08:18.960 align:middle line:90% doesn't always-- 00:08:18.960 --> 00:08:21.180 align:middle line:84% in fact, can have the opposite of the desired effect. 00:08:21.180 --> 00:08:23.880 align:middle line:84% You can end by creating more work for people 00:08:23.880 --> 00:08:26.130 align:middle line:84% and also giving them more opportunities 00:08:26.130 --> 00:08:30.840 align:middle line:84% to create paperwork that makes it look like a certain thing is 00:08:30.840 --> 00:08:33.242 align:middle line:84% going on, even when something else is actually happening. 00:08:33.242 --> 00:08:36.380 align:middle line:90% 00:08:36.380 --> 00:08:39.370 align:middle line:84% ANNA KALBARCZYK: So you both raised issues of incentives 00:08:39.370 --> 00:08:40.600 align:middle line:90% but also who. 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:42.789 align:middle line:84% So I was hoping maybe in our last minute, 00:08:42.789 --> 00:08:46.720 align:middle line:84% you could think about who has the power to hold systems 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.930 align:middle line:84% accountable and [AUDIO OUT] incentivize. 00:08:49.930 --> 00:08:51.670 align:middle line:90% So this is an and question. 00:08:51.670 --> 00:08:56.778 align:middle line:84% And you're just thinking about the who and the incentives. 00:08:56.778 --> 00:08:57.820 align:middle line:90% SVEA CLOSSER: Well, yeah. 00:08:57.820 --> 00:09:00.640 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think there's a blame game that often happens. 00:09:00.640 --> 00:09:04.600 align:middle line:84% And it doesn't often happen in public settings 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:05.800 align:middle line:90% but in private settings. 00:09:05.800 --> 00:09:08.560 align:middle line:84% You will hear people who donated the money, saying 00:09:08.560 --> 00:09:10.180 align:middle line:90% that governments are corrupt. 00:09:10.180 --> 00:09:11.980 align:middle line:84% And it's like the government's fault 00:09:11.980 --> 00:09:13.820 align:middle line:90% that it wasn't spent correctly. 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:17.920 align:middle line:84% And I think that narrative is a dangerous one, 00:09:17.920 --> 00:09:23.500 align:middle line:84% because it can place blame on local governments, 00:09:23.500 --> 00:09:26.320 align:middle line:84% instead of thinking more comprehensively 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:30.130 align:middle line:84% about this larger system and how it's set up. 00:09:30.130 --> 00:09:34.420 align:middle line:84% So do donors, for example, have the power 00:09:34.420 --> 00:09:38.950 align:middle line:90% to end corruption everywhere? 00:09:38.950 --> 00:09:41.320 align:middle line:84% No, nor perhaps should they have total power 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:43.550 align:middle line:84% over what happens at the district level. 00:09:43.550 --> 00:09:46.000 align:middle line:84% But the fact that they've put large amounts of money 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:50.270 align:middle line:84% into specific initiatives does make them culpable in some way. 00:09:50.270 --> 00:09:51.510 align:middle line:90% So it's a very-- 00:09:51.510 --> 00:09:55.060 align:middle line:84% this question of who can fix it is like super complex, 00:09:55.060 --> 00:09:57.430 align:middle line:84% because it involves thinking about everybody who's 00:09:57.430 --> 00:10:01.680 align:middle line:84% contributing to the system, not just the person who's actually 00:10:01.680 --> 00:10:03.340 align:middle line:90% trying to make $5. 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:04.630 align:middle line:90% Right? 00:10:04.630 --> 00:10:06.290 align:middle line:84% But it's a lot more complex than that, 00:10:06.290 --> 00:10:07.540 align:middle line:90% which is sort of a non-answer. 00:10:07.540 --> 00:10:09.172 align:middle line:90% [CHUCKLES] 00:10:09.172 --> 00:10:11.770 align:middle line:84% But it is context specific, I think. 00:10:11.770 --> 00:10:13.780 align:middle line:84% And we have to think about it as an issue that 00:10:13.780 --> 00:10:16.330 align:middle line:84% involves everybody, even people who 00:10:16.330 --> 00:10:17.890 align:middle line:90% think that they're not corrupt. 00:10:17.890 --> 00:10:20.165 align:middle line:84% You know, they're not taking money out of the system. 00:10:20.165 --> 00:10:21.790 align:middle line:84% But the fact that they're putting money 00:10:21.790 --> 00:10:25.870 align:middle line:84% into it in particularly interesting strange ways 00:10:25.870 --> 00:10:30.340 align:middle line:84% might be creating the right situation for it, 00:10:30.340 --> 00:10:31.235 align:middle line:90% if that makes sense. 00:10:31.235 --> 00:10:33.360 align:middle line:84% ANNA KALBARCZYK: Kunle, anything you'd like to add? 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:34.277 align:middle line:90% OLAKUNLE ALONGE: Yeah. 00:10:34.277 --> 00:10:36.040 align:middle line:90% I think to right on that. 00:10:36.040 --> 00:10:40.660 align:middle line:84% Everybody has a part to play, to address corruption 00:10:40.660 --> 00:10:43.020 align:middle line:84% in a global program like the polio. 00:10:43.020 --> 00:10:47.646 align:middle line:84% And I think it's easier to think about it as hierarchies. 00:10:47.646 --> 00:10:50.480 align:middle line:84% And at different levels within the hierarchy, 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.290 align:middle line:84% there are key actors that has a role to play. 00:10:54.290 --> 00:10:55.750 align:middle line:84% I mean, from the very grassroots, 00:10:55.750 --> 00:10:57.880 align:middle line:90% you have the community. 00:10:57.880 --> 00:11:00.250 align:middle line:90% The community kind of hold-- 00:11:00.250 --> 00:11:02.720 align:middle line:84% they are representative accountable. 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.510 align:middle line:84% They kind of hold their district of officers accountable. 00:11:06.510 --> 00:11:08.510 align:middle line:84% And they should be given the power to do that. 00:11:08.510 --> 00:11:11.290 align:middle line:84% That mean they should be given the voice and the [? teeth ?] 00:11:11.290 --> 00:11:12.340 align:middle line:90% to do that. 00:11:12.340 --> 00:11:14.580 align:middle line:84% And then, at the interphase of the-- 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:19.520 align:middle line:84% of the-- of the district office and the provincial or state 00:11:19.520 --> 00:11:22.480 align:middle line:84% at office, you also have managers 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.600 align:middle line:84% that are supposed to be accountable to supervisors. 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.720 align:middle line:84% And in the same way, it's supposed to cascade hope 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.630 align:middle line:84% to elected officials and to political officials. 00:11:31.630 --> 00:11:34.150 align:middle line:90% And it should go back to power. 00:11:34.150 --> 00:11:38.440 align:middle line:84% I mean, in terms of how power is distributed within societies 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:41.610 align:middle line:90% and who's what power and so on. 00:11:41.610 --> 00:11:43.970 align:middle line:84% Ultimately, some of this power is drawn from-- 00:11:43.970 --> 00:11:44.830 align:middle line:90% from election. 00:11:44.830 --> 00:11:47.900 align:middle line:84% Some of this power is drawn from delegation, and so on. 00:11:47.900 --> 00:11:52.330 align:middle line:84% And like Svea said, it's also important for the donors 00:11:52.330 --> 00:11:56.170 align:middle line:84% not to see themselves as being completely absolved of the-- 00:11:56.170 --> 00:11:58.990 align:middle line:84% of blame, and just to pass on the bulk. 00:11:58.990 --> 00:12:02.350 align:middle line:84% I mean, some of the ways the fundings are set up 00:12:02.350 --> 00:12:07.490 align:middle line:84% in some places creates an avenue for corruption. 00:12:07.490 --> 00:12:10.750 align:middle line:84% So when you have funding that is so restricted and people can 00:12:10.750 --> 00:12:13.140 align:middle line:84% look-- people who are [INAUDIBLE] to the issues 00:12:13.140 --> 00:12:17.210 align:middle line:84% cannot innovate or [? target ?] funding appropriately. 00:12:17.210 --> 00:12:23.740 align:middle line:84% Then, you have-- you have some [INAUDIBLE] for corruption. 00:12:23.740 --> 00:12:25.150 align:middle line:84% So for the donor, I think there's 00:12:25.150 --> 00:12:28.460 align:middle line:84% a need for them to have ongoing conversation in terms of-- 00:12:28.460 --> 00:12:30.620 align:middle line:84% and the attitude should be one of collaboration 00:12:30.620 --> 00:12:33.970 align:middle line:84% and participation to understand the system better, 00:12:33.970 --> 00:12:36.310 align:middle line:84% to understand the actors within the system, 00:12:36.310 --> 00:12:38.950 align:middle line:84% and then to co-convene solutions together. 00:12:38.950 --> 00:12:41.417 align:middle line:84% Because ultimately the power that you do not withdraw 00:12:41.417 --> 00:12:43.000 align:middle line:84% lies with the resources that have been 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:45.285 align:middle line:90% able to put into the system. 00:12:45.285 --> 00:12:47.410 align:middle line:84% But the ultimate power really lies with the people. 00:12:47.410 --> 00:12:49.040 align:middle line:84% And you need to co-convene with-- 00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:53.080 align:middle line:84% with some of the elected legitimate officials 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:55.042 align:middle line:90% within the system. 00:12:55.042 --> 00:12:56.500 align:middle line:84% ANNA KALBARCZYK: So I know we could 00:12:56.500 --> 00:12:58.160 align:middle line:90% go on and on about this topic. 00:12:58.160 --> 00:12:59.540 align:middle line:90% There's a lot of layers. 00:12:59.540 --> 00:13:00.613 align:middle line:90% It's very complex. 00:13:00.613 --> 00:13:01.780 align:middle line:90% But I think we'll stop here. 00:13:01.780 --> 00:13:05.080 align:middle line:84% Thank you so much for concisely describing some 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:07.090 align:middle line:90% of these issues in corruption. 00:13:07.090 --> 00:13:08.660 align:middle line:90% And thank you for joining us. 00:13:08.660 --> 00:13:10.220 align:middle line:90% We'll see you next time. 00:13:10.220 --> 00:13:10.720 align:middle line:90% OLAKUNLE ALONGE: Thank you. 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:11.620 align:middle line:90% SVEA CLOSSER: Thanks. 00:13:11.620 --> 00:13:15.270 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:13:15.270 --> 00:13:19.000 align:middle line:90%