WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.180 align:middle line:90%


00:00:01.180 --> 00:00:07.180 align:middle line:84%
So Brian, tell us something
about what the inspiration

00:00:07.180 --> 00:00:11.265 align:middle line:84%
was for you to commission this
course in the first place.

00:00:11.265 --> 00:00:13.650 align:middle line:84%
Well, for me it's
actually, you know, really

00:00:13.650 --> 00:00:17.010 align:middle line:84%
extends quite far back in
terms of my own personal and

00:00:17.010 --> 00:00:19.560 align:middle line:90%
professional development.

00:00:19.560 --> 00:00:23.340 align:middle line:84%
When I was still at
university studying

00:00:23.340 --> 00:00:25.380 align:middle line:84%
my undergraduate
degree with no sense

00:00:25.380 --> 00:00:27.360 align:middle line:84%
that I would become
a psychologist

00:00:27.360 --> 00:00:32.009 align:middle line:84%
or work in mental health,
I had the opportunity

00:00:32.009 --> 00:00:37.070 align:middle line:84%
to train, and then work, in a
local hospice in Johannesburg.

00:00:37.070 --> 00:00:41.050 align:middle line:84%
And it was a very powerful
and immensely formative

00:00:41.050 --> 00:00:45.070 align:middle line:84%
experience of really
learning about and working

00:00:45.070 --> 00:00:49.030 align:middle line:84%
with individuals
and families who

00:00:49.030 --> 00:00:56.380 align:middle line:84%
were facing very difficult,
challenging, distressing

00:00:56.380 --> 00:01:00.790 align:middle line:84%
situations and experiences
with a member of their family

00:01:00.790 --> 00:01:05.830 align:middle line:84%
having a terminal illness
and having to negotiate all

00:01:05.830 --> 00:01:08.710 align:middle line:84%
that that entailed for
them, as well as having

00:01:08.710 --> 00:01:15.040 align:middle line:84%
to face a certain death,
as it were, in the family,

00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:19.250 align:middle line:84%
and how to manage the
living through that.

00:01:19.250 --> 00:01:23.890 align:middle line:84%
And I think there has been
something about living

00:01:23.890 --> 00:01:27.880 align:middle line:84%
and working through
the pandemic that has,

00:01:27.880 --> 00:01:35.560 align:middle line:84%
I think, again, reconnected
me with those experiences

00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:39.730 align:middle line:84%
and with the way in which
it shaped my own thinking

00:01:39.730 --> 00:01:42.070 align:middle line:84%
about what matters
and what's important,

00:01:42.070 --> 00:01:45.100 align:middle line:84%
both in ordinary life,
but also in working

00:01:45.100 --> 00:01:50.640 align:middle line:84%
with people who are suffering
with emotional distress

00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:53.620 align:middle line:90%
and mental health issues.

00:01:53.620 --> 00:01:57.300 align:middle line:84%
I mean, my own story is, of
course, different to yours.

00:01:57.300 --> 00:02:05.610 align:middle line:84%
But I think my interest in
trying to offer something

00:02:05.610 --> 00:02:09.360 align:middle line:84%
to the world, as it were, about
the experience of the pandemic

00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:12.990 align:middle line:84%
is also connected to
my own relationship

00:02:12.990 --> 00:02:16.500 align:middle line:84%
to death and dying, and fear
of dying through my life

00:02:16.500 --> 00:02:22.350 align:middle line:84%
because I was very ill twice
with a life threatening illness

00:02:22.350 --> 00:02:24.000 align:middle line:90%
quite young, in my 20s.

00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:28.050 align:middle line:84%
I survived obviously,
and flourished since.

00:02:28.050 --> 00:02:30.480 align:middle line:84%
It's given me a kind
of a sensitivity

00:02:30.480 --> 00:02:33.780 align:middle line:84%
to these questions and
an interest in them.

00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:36.750 align:middle line:90%


00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:39.110 align:middle line:84%
I think one of the
interesting important things

00:02:39.110 --> 00:02:42.980 align:middle line:84%
about the pandemic is that I
suspect it's brought everybody

00:02:42.980 --> 00:02:46.100 align:middle line:84%
closer to an awareness
of mortality,

00:02:46.100 --> 00:02:50.340 align:middle line:84%
of their own vulnerability
as you mentioned.

00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:53.110 align:middle line:84%
And this has been
very important,

00:02:53.110 --> 00:02:56.140 align:middle line:84%
partly in connecting us
together in the way you spoke

00:02:56.140 --> 00:03:00.880 align:middle line:84%
about, but also in perhaps
deepening our relationship

00:03:00.880 --> 00:03:03.790 align:middle line:90%
to ourselves and one another.

00:03:03.790 --> 00:03:09.070 align:middle line:84%
Yeah, so in a way, we hope that
the course will connect people

00:03:09.070 --> 00:03:11.410 align:middle line:84%
in its own rights, and
bring people together

00:03:11.410 --> 00:03:15.370 align:middle line:84%
from different nations
and cultures with very

00:03:15.370 --> 00:03:16.860 align:middle line:90%
different experiences.

00:03:16.860 --> 00:03:19.690 align:middle line:84%
It's all contributing
to that, I hope.

00:03:19.690 --> 00:03:23.095 align:middle line:84%
These are very, very
[INAUDIBLE] emerging.

00:03:23.095 --> 00:03:25.820 align:middle line:90%


00:03:25.820 --> 00:03:32.160 align:middle line:84%
Rather set of disturbing
information about the fact

00:03:32.160 --> 00:03:36.140 align:middle line:84%
that actually not everyone is--
we're not all in it together.

00:03:36.140 --> 00:03:40.280 align:middle line:84%
And there are some people who
are far more greatly affected.

00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:45.450 align:middle line:84%
That includes people from
black, Asian, minority

00:03:45.450 --> 00:03:47.470 align:middle line:90%
ethnic communities.

00:03:47.470 --> 00:03:52.080 align:middle line:84%
Socioeconomic status,
poverty, all play a role

00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:55.320 align:middle line:84%
in ensuring that
actually some of us

00:03:55.320 --> 00:03:59.040 align:middle line:84%
are actually far better off
through this than others.

00:03:59.040 --> 00:04:01.230 align:middle line:84%
And just any
reflections you have

00:04:01.230 --> 00:04:06.420 align:middle line:84%
on the more political
dimensions of the pandemic

00:04:06.420 --> 00:04:09.660 align:middle line:84%
and how it might
intersect with the focus

00:04:09.660 --> 00:04:11.520 align:middle line:90%
and themes of the course.

00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.040 align:middle line:84%
So we do look at
some of these sort

00:04:14.040 --> 00:04:17.490 align:middle line:84%
of differential
impacts of the virus

00:04:17.490 --> 00:04:20.490 align:middle line:90%
upon different communities.

00:04:20.490 --> 00:04:22.890 align:middle line:84%
I think it's just
terribly important

00:04:22.890 --> 00:04:26.820 align:middle line:84%
that we are aware that
not everybody actually

00:04:26.820 --> 00:04:31.680 align:middle line:84%
is impacted in the same way,
at an individual or a community

00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:33.850 align:middle line:90%
level.

00:04:33.850 --> 00:04:37.910 align:middle line:84%
It's not just that the risks
are greater for some people.

00:04:37.910 --> 00:04:40.050 align:middle line:84%
I mean, they're
somewhat greater for me,

00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:42.560 align:middle line:84%
someone with an underlying
health condition

00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.030 align:middle line:90%
and being older.

00:04:45.030 --> 00:04:47.400 align:middle line:84%
But equally, there
are many ways in which

00:04:47.400 --> 00:04:51.690 align:middle line:84%
I'm relatively protected and
privileged in all of this.

00:04:51.690 --> 00:04:57.030 align:middle line:84%
I think it's very important to
recognise that if you're poor,

00:04:57.030 --> 00:04:59.470 align:middle line:84%
if you're from a
black and minority,

00:04:59.470 --> 00:05:02.420 align:middle line:84%
in particular certain black and
ethnic minority communities,

00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:05.790 align:middle line:84%
and if you're a man, then
the risks are greater,

00:05:05.790 --> 00:05:07.740 align:middle line:84%
and have been greater
and been shown to me.

00:05:07.740 --> 00:05:13.590 align:middle line:84%
So we've seen the kind of very
troubling situation in the UK

00:05:13.590 --> 00:05:18.775 align:middle line:84%
that a large majority of
the health professionals who

00:05:18.775 --> 00:05:22.140 align:middle line:84%
have died of COVID have
been from black and minority

00:05:22.140 --> 00:05:23.370 align:middle line:90%
ethnic backgrounds.

00:05:23.370 --> 00:05:27.670 align:middle line:84%
And we're still trying to
understand what this is about

00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:31.610 align:middle line:90%
and what contributes to this.

00:05:31.610 --> 00:05:36.790 align:middle line:84%
I suppose there's been
an emerging [INAUDIBLE],,

00:05:36.790 --> 00:05:42.250 align:middle line:84%
particularly around health
care provision and working

00:05:42.250 --> 00:05:45.960 align:middle line:84%
in health care, about the
concept of moral injury.

00:05:45.960 --> 00:05:49.720 align:middle line:84%
And that sort of sense
that the invidious position

00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:53.440 align:middle line:84%
that many health care
workers are placed in,

00:05:53.440 --> 00:06:00.760 align:middle line:84%
where they feel a strong
commitment and responsibility

00:06:00.760 --> 00:06:04.390 align:middle line:84%
to provide care under very
difficult circumstances.

00:06:04.390 --> 00:06:07.910 align:middle line:84%
Well, we do look very
directly at this question,

00:06:07.910 --> 00:06:12.250 align:middle line:84%
this phenomenon of moral injury
because I became very, very

00:06:12.250 --> 00:06:15.760 align:middle line:84%
aware of it in the work I was
doing with front line workers

00:06:15.760 --> 00:06:17.790 align:middle line:90%
and with others, in fact.

00:06:17.790 --> 00:06:22.390 align:middle line:84%
Of people gradually being able
to surface in the discussion

00:06:22.390 --> 00:06:27.560 align:middle line:84%
spaces I was facilitating,
the fact that they frequently

00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:32.430 align:middle line:84%
felt that they were being
required to follow guidance,

00:06:32.430 --> 00:06:36.170 align:middle line:84%
let's say about discharging
frail vulnerable elderly people

00:06:36.170 --> 00:06:40.790 align:middle line:84%
from hospital to make space,
bed space, in the hospitals

00:06:40.790 --> 00:06:44.750 align:middle line:84%
when they didn't know
that these people often

00:06:44.750 --> 00:06:47.190 align:middle line:90%
haven't been tested.

00:06:47.190 --> 00:06:49.400 align:middle line:84%
And they were going
to be discharged back

00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:53.210 align:middle line:84%
into situations where they
might be infecting others,

00:06:53.210 --> 00:06:57.050 align:middle line:84%
or might be infected by others
who also hadn't been tested.

00:06:57.050 --> 00:07:01.160 align:middle line:84%
And they felt very, very
compromised at times.

00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:06.170 align:middle line:84%
And Charlotte, the social worker
who people would encounter,

00:07:06.170 --> 00:07:08.510 align:middle line:84%
we'll meet during the
course, speaks about this,

00:07:08.510 --> 00:07:11.900 align:middle line:84%
saying at times she wondered
whether she was involved

00:07:11.900 --> 00:07:14.930 align:middle line:84%
in taking decisions
or going along

00:07:14.930 --> 00:07:18.350 align:middle line:84%
with decisions that would
lead to someone dying.

00:07:18.350 --> 00:07:21.350 align:middle line:84%
And this sits
very, very uneasily

00:07:21.350 --> 00:07:25.850 align:middle line:84%
and painfully for people whose
primary motivation for being

00:07:25.850 --> 00:07:31.610 align:middle line:84%
in work like this is to
protect others, to cure them,

00:07:31.610 --> 00:07:34.190 align:middle line:90%
to alleviate suffering.

00:07:34.190 --> 00:07:36.860 align:middle line:84%
And yet there they
are, knowingly,

00:07:36.860 --> 00:07:41.420 align:middle line:84%
but without very much
sense of choice, obliged

00:07:41.420 --> 00:07:43.580 align:middle line:84%
to go along with
practises that they think

00:07:43.580 --> 00:07:45.320 align:middle line:90%
might be doing people harm.

00:07:45.320 --> 00:07:48.630 align:middle line:84%
That's the really, really
difficult conflict.

00:07:48.630 --> 00:07:51.820 align:middle line:84%
And the added dimension
of it, of course,

00:07:51.820 --> 00:07:55.440 align:middle line:84%
is that many of these
staff were exposing

00:07:55.440 --> 00:08:00.210 align:middle line:90%
themselves to risk as well.

00:08:00.210 --> 00:08:02.790 align:middle line:84%
To me, that sort
of heroism is not

00:08:02.790 --> 00:08:08.130 align:middle line:84%
in the emergency
atmosphere of a ICU,

00:08:08.130 --> 00:08:11.790 align:middle line:84%
but in much more ordinary
people navigating

00:08:11.790 --> 00:08:16.180 align:middle line:84%
those kinds of tensions
very courageously, I think.

00:08:16.180 --> 00:08:20.190 align:middle line:84%
Well, I think that
really puts it very well.

00:08:20.190 --> 00:08:24.870 align:middle line:84%
And I think it's going to
be a fantastic programme.

00:08:24.870 --> 00:08:27.930 align:middle line:84%
I know you've put a lot
of thought and work,

00:08:27.930 --> 00:08:32.490 align:middle line:84%
with other colleagues, into the
development of the programme

00:08:32.490 --> 00:08:34.770 align:middle line:90%
and into its delivery.

00:08:34.770 --> 00:08:37.110 align:middle line:84%
I'm really looking
forward to participating,

00:08:37.110 --> 00:08:40.440 align:middle line:84%
and thanks again for all
the work you've put into it.

00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:41.075 align:middle line:90%
OK.

00:08:41.075 --> 00:08:43.200 align:middle line:84%
Well, it's been a pleasure
to talk with you, Brian.

00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:43.770 align:middle line:90%
Thank you.

00:08:43.770 --> 00:08:44.340 align:middle line:90%
And you.

00:08:44.340 --> 00:08:46.190 align:middle line:90%
Thanks, Andrew.