WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.374 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:00:03.374 --> 00:00:08.557 align:middle line:90% 00:00:08.557 --> 00:00:09.140 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Hi. 00:00:09.140 --> 00:00:12.110 align:middle line:84% My name is Svea Closser, and I'm an associate professor here 00:00:12.110 --> 00:00:14.450 align:middle line:84% at the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health. 00:00:14.450 --> 00:00:17.990 align:middle line:84% Today, I'm really lucky to have with me Dr. Omid Rahimi. 00:00:17.990 --> 00:00:21.050 align:middle line:84% He's going to talk with us about policy engagement strategies 00:00:21.050 --> 00:00:24.440 align:middle line:84% in Afghanistan, which have been particularly complex because 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:26.390 align:middle line:84% of ongoing conflict in Afghanistan. 00:00:26.390 --> 00:00:30.373 align:middle line:84% So Omid, thank you so much for being with us today. 00:00:30.373 --> 00:00:31.790 align:middle line:84% And it would be great if you could 00:00:31.790 --> 00:00:35.510 align:middle line:84% start by just talking a little bit about your background 00:00:35.510 --> 00:00:36.890 align:middle line:90% and your work in Afghanistan. 00:00:36.890 --> 00:00:38.240 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Thank you, Svea. 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:39.080 align:middle line:90% Hello. 00:00:39.080 --> 00:00:40.620 align:middle line:90% My name is Omid Rahimi. 00:00:40.620 --> 00:00:45.080 align:middle line:84% I am working at Global Innovations Consultancy 00:00:45.080 --> 00:00:47.550 align:middle line:90% Services in Afghanistan. 00:00:47.550 --> 00:00:51.440 align:middle line:84% And I am a part of the consortium working 00:00:51.440 --> 00:00:55.400 align:middle line:84% under the guidance of Johns Hopkins University on polio 00:00:55.400 --> 00:00:57.980 align:middle line:84% and eradication activities and lessons 00:00:57.980 --> 00:01:00.020 align:middle line:84% learned from eradication activities 00:01:00.020 --> 00:01:01.897 align:middle line:90% from seven countries. 00:01:01.897 --> 00:01:03.980 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: So let's get into some of those lessons 00:01:03.980 --> 00:01:06.020 align:middle line:84% learned in Afghanistan, particularly 00:01:06.020 --> 00:01:09.350 align:middle line:84% in terms of policy engagement, because usually when 00:01:09.350 --> 00:01:12.410 align:middle line:84% we think about global policy engagement, we think, 00:01:12.410 --> 00:01:15.598 align:middle line:84% OK, the international organizations, like WHO, 00:01:15.598 --> 00:01:17.390 align:middle line:84% are going to speak to a country government. 00:01:17.390 --> 00:01:18.170 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Yes. 00:01:18.170 --> 00:01:20.462 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: So they did that, of course, in Afghanistan. 00:01:20.462 --> 00:01:22.610 align:middle line:84% But can you talk a little bit about why things 00:01:22.610 --> 00:01:24.020 align:middle line:90% were more complicated there? 00:01:24.020 --> 00:01:25.220 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Absolutely. 00:01:25.220 --> 00:01:26.960 align:middle line:84% As you know, Afghanistan, together 00:01:26.960 --> 00:01:32.000 align:middle line:84% with Pakistan and Nigeria, are the three endemic countries 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:33.680 align:middle line:90% with regards to polio. 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:40.010 align:middle line:84% And unfortunately, Afghanistan is a war-torn country, 00:01:40.010 --> 00:01:45.800 align:middle line:84% having been affected for more than 40 years by war. 00:01:45.800 --> 00:01:49.820 align:middle line:84% It's a war-ravaged country, and the setting in Afghanistan 00:01:49.820 --> 00:01:52.460 align:middle line:84% is totally different with regards or comparing 00:01:52.460 --> 00:01:54.730 align:middle line:90% to other nations. 00:01:54.730 --> 00:01:59.450 align:middle line:84% In Afghanistan overall, we have the government of Afghanistan 00:01:59.450 --> 00:02:01.985 align:middle line:84% responsible for polio eradication activities, 00:02:01.985 --> 00:02:08.520 align:middle line:84% WHO, UNICEF, run by GPEI, and other small NGOs working 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:12.500 align:middle line:84% at the field for coordinating the eradication 00:02:12.500 --> 00:02:13.540 align:middle line:90% activities overall. 00:02:13.540 --> 00:02:16.810 align:middle line:90% 00:02:16.810 --> 00:02:23.380 align:middle line:84% The problem with Afghanistan is that WHO and UNICEF 00:02:23.380 --> 00:02:26.890 align:middle line:84% have the experience of working on polio eradication activities 00:02:26.890 --> 00:02:28.462 align:middle line:90% since the start of the GPEI. 00:02:28.462 --> 00:02:29.170 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Right. 00:02:29.170 --> 00:02:31.630 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: And now, the government, 00:02:31.630 --> 00:02:36.550 align:middle line:84% by establishing the emergency operations center, 00:02:36.550 --> 00:02:39.310 align:middle line:84% wants to take over the responsibility 00:02:39.310 --> 00:02:46.180 align:middle line:84% and wants to control the health service overall, including 00:02:46.180 --> 00:02:48.100 align:middle line:90% the polio eradication. 00:02:48.100 --> 00:02:54.190 align:middle line:84% So there is some sort of soft struggle between engagement 00:02:54.190 --> 00:02:57.520 align:middle line:84% and involvement of foreign and international organizations 00:02:57.520 --> 00:02:58.623 align:middle line:90% and local organizations-- 00:02:58.623 --> 00:02:59.290 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Sure. 00:02:59.290 --> 00:03:01.796 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: --which is a bit problematic. 00:03:01.796 --> 00:03:03.713 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: So it's a complicated negotiation-- 00:03:03.713 --> 00:03:04.520 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Yes, yes. 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:05.440 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: --between the government 00:03:05.440 --> 00:03:06.850 align:middle line:90% and the international partners-- 00:03:06.850 --> 00:03:07.450 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Yes, yes. 00:03:07.450 --> 00:03:09.010 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: --and it doesn't always work smoothly. 00:03:09.010 --> 00:03:09.670 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Doesn't always. 00:03:09.670 --> 00:03:11.140 align:middle line:84% Sometimes, it works, sometimes it doesn't. 00:03:11.140 --> 00:03:11.770 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Sure, yeah. 00:03:11.770 --> 00:03:13.930 align:middle line:84% Do you think that that's affected by the larger 00:03:13.930 --> 00:03:16.300 align:middle line:84% geopolitical context of, obviously, 00:03:16.300 --> 00:03:20.470 align:middle line:84% American and other armed involvement in Afghanistan, 00:03:20.470 --> 00:03:24.190 align:middle line:84% or do you think that's specific to polio? 00:03:24.190 --> 00:03:27.760 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: In a broad way, it's not specific to polio. 00:03:27.760 --> 00:03:30.333 align:middle line:84% We have too many players in Afghanistan. 00:03:30.333 --> 00:03:31.000 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:35.230 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: We have Taliban, we have insurgents, we have ISI, 00:03:35.230 --> 00:03:37.540 align:middle line:90% we have-- 00:03:37.540 --> 00:03:39.882 align:middle line:90% I mean, ISIS, Daesh. 00:03:39.882 --> 00:03:40.840 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Right, yeah. 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:44.830 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: I meant Daesh and other insurgents 00:03:44.830 --> 00:03:49.360 align:middle line:84% actively fighting against American troops, 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:53.020 align:middle line:84% against international aids and assistance, 00:03:53.020 --> 00:03:55.060 align:middle line:84% and against the government of Afghanistan. 00:03:55.060 --> 00:03:55.727 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 00:03:55.727 --> 00:03:59.470 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: So this directly and indirectly affects 00:03:59.470 --> 00:04:02.323 align:middle line:84% all the health system in Afghanistan, including polio. 00:04:02.323 --> 00:04:02.990 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 00:04:02.990 --> 00:04:03.740 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Yeah. 00:04:03.740 --> 00:04:05.560 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: So let's talk a little bit more 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:06.520 align:middle line:90% about how that works. 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:09.130 align:middle line:84% So there's this engagement that the GPEI has 00:04:09.130 --> 00:04:11.240 align:middle line:84% to have with the government of Afghanistan, 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:13.210 align:middle line:84% which, as you mentioned, is complicated. 00:04:13.210 --> 00:04:15.880 align:middle line:84% But then what about the areas that the government doesn't 00:04:15.880 --> 00:04:16.480 align:middle line:90% control? 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:19.959 align:middle line:84% What are some other players that you might have to work with? 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:21.670 align:middle line:84% So Taliban, I would assume, is one. 00:04:21.670 --> 00:04:23.002 align:middle line:90% Are there others, too? 00:04:23.002 --> 00:04:24.460 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: Other insurgent groups 00:04:24.460 --> 00:04:28.720 align:middle line:84% are not that much powerful to have 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.710 align:middle line:90% influence all over Afghanistan. 00:04:30.710 --> 00:04:32.607 align:middle line:84% They are local insurgent groups-- 00:04:32.607 --> 00:04:33.190 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: OK. 00:04:33.190 --> 00:04:42.940 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: --that, in order to conduct all activities 00:04:42.940 --> 00:04:46.990 align:middle line:84% in a smoother way, each organization or the government 00:04:46.990 --> 00:04:47.680 align:middle line:90% have to-- 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:50.620 align:middle line:90% 00:04:50.620 --> 00:04:53.200 align:middle line:90% how can I say it-- 00:04:53.200 --> 00:04:54.767 align:middle line:90% negotiate with them separately. 00:04:54.767 --> 00:04:55.350 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: OK. 00:04:55.350 --> 00:04:59.890 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: But with the Taliban, it's a bit different. 00:04:59.890 --> 00:05:03.740 align:middle line:84% So they have their own commanding power, 00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:05.800 align:middle line:90% their central commanding power. 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:09.310 align:middle line:84% So the type of negotiation with Taliban 00:05:09.310 --> 00:05:12.040 align:middle line:84% is totally different with type of negotiation 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:15.477 align:middle line:84% with other small insurgent groups. 00:05:15.477 --> 00:05:16.060 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: OK. 00:05:16.060 --> 00:05:17.800 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: So this makes it more complicated. 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:18.475 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: Even more complicated. 00:05:18.475 --> 00:05:19.000 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: Even more complicated. 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:21.280 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: So how do you negotiate with the Taliban 00:05:21.280 --> 00:05:23.610 align:middle line:90% to do polio eradication? 00:05:23.610 --> 00:05:26.950 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: Actually, comparing to Pakistan, Taliban 00:05:26.950 --> 00:05:32.180 align:middle line:84% in Afghanistan are not that much against polio activities. 00:05:32.180 --> 00:05:37.180 align:middle line:84% One is that these activities were not 00:05:37.180 --> 00:05:43.480 align:middle line:84% stopped during the time the Taliban controlled almost 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:45.160 align:middle line:90% totally areas of Afghanistan. 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:48.640 align:middle line:84% At that time, it was not a very big issue. 00:05:48.640 --> 00:05:54.640 align:middle line:84% And we have local Talibans who are pro all health activities, 00:05:54.640 --> 00:05:56.620 align:middle line:84% and the small group of insurgents 00:05:56.620 --> 00:06:02.135 align:middle line:84% who belong to some foreign terrorist organizations. 00:06:02.135 --> 00:06:03.200 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: OK. 00:06:03.200 --> 00:06:05.800 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: So generally, Taliban are not against it. 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.220 align:middle line:84% And besides, there is a good strategy of the WHO, UNICEF, 00:06:09.220 --> 00:06:12.760 align:middle line:84% and other implementing partners who 00:06:12.760 --> 00:06:16.570 align:middle line:84% are focusing on recruiting people 00:06:16.570 --> 00:06:18.490 align:middle line:84% from the community, including Taliban. 00:06:18.490 --> 00:06:23.230 align:middle line:84% So Taliban somehow are involved in eradication activities, 00:06:23.230 --> 00:06:26.500 align:middle line:84% and they do not pose too much difficulties 00:06:26.500 --> 00:06:32.290 align:middle line:84% and smooth implementation of polio eradication activities. 00:06:32.290 --> 00:06:36.770 align:middle line:84% However, while there is active fighting, 00:06:36.770 --> 00:06:39.640 align:middle line:84% no matter who is responsible for it, between Taliban 00:06:39.640 --> 00:06:42.610 align:middle line:84% and other insurgent groups, between government 00:06:42.610 --> 00:06:45.730 align:middle line:84% of Afghanistan and other insurgent groups, 00:06:45.730 --> 00:06:50.320 align:middle line:84% or between the foreign troops and the Daesh, 00:06:50.320 --> 00:06:53.890 align:middle line:84% we know that, due to active fighting, 00:06:53.890 --> 00:07:00.970 align:middle line:84% there will be pockets of people isolated and unprotected, 00:07:00.970 --> 00:07:02.283 align:middle line:90% let's say, against polio virus. 00:07:02.283 --> 00:07:02.950 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 00:07:02.950 --> 00:07:06.250 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: So this is the main cause of low coverage 00:07:06.250 --> 00:07:08.973 align:middle line:84% and low accessibility with regards to polio. 00:07:08.973 --> 00:07:09.640 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 00:07:09.640 --> 00:07:14.740 align:middle line:84% So the WHO, UNICEF, other GPEI partners have been able to work 00:07:14.740 --> 00:07:17.387 align:middle line:84% with Taliban leadership and with local communities who may be 00:07:17.387 --> 00:07:18.220 align:middle line:90% Taliban-affiliated-- 00:07:18.220 --> 00:07:18.880 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Yes, yes-- 00:07:18.880 --> 00:07:19.790 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: --to implement. 00:07:19.790 --> 00:07:20.590 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: --they have. 00:07:20.590 --> 00:07:22.173 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: How have they tried to work 00:07:22.173 --> 00:07:24.010 align:middle line:84% with an organization like Daesh, or has 00:07:24.010 --> 00:07:26.368 align:middle line:90% that not been successful? 00:07:26.368 --> 00:07:27.910 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: Organizations like Daesh 00:07:27.910 --> 00:07:32.140 align:middle line:84% and other foreign terrorist organizations, 00:07:32.140 --> 00:07:36.920 align:middle line:84% they don't have any interest in public health, 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.770 align:middle line:84% and it's very difficult to convince them. 00:07:39.770 --> 00:07:48.310 align:middle line:84% And they do not have a physical presence-- 00:07:48.310 --> 00:07:50.560 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: So it's hard to know who to negotiate with. 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:51.720 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: So it's hard to know who to negotiate with. 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:52.387 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 00:07:52.387 --> 00:07:54.370 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: While the Taliban have their-- 00:07:54.370 --> 00:07:55.110 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: They have a designated leader-- 00:07:55.110 --> 00:07:55.580 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: --a presence-- 00:07:55.580 --> 00:07:55.630 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: --so you know who-- 00:07:55.630 --> 00:07:56.520 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: --they have a designated leader-- 00:07:56.520 --> 00:07:56.950 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: --to contact, yeah. 00:07:56.950 --> 00:07:58.390 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: --but contacting with Daesh 00:07:58.390 --> 00:08:00.160 align:middle line:84% and other terrorist groups is very difficult. 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:00.680 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Difficult. 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:00.765 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Yes. 00:08:00.765 --> 00:08:01.810 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER 1: So those are the areas 00:08:01.810 --> 00:08:03.685 align:middle line:84% maybe that they control that are particularly 00:08:03.685 --> 00:08:04.650 align:middle line:90% difficult to access. 00:08:04.650 --> 00:08:05.567 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Yes, yes. 00:08:05.567 --> 00:08:06.370 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 00:08:06.370 --> 00:08:06.610 align:middle line:90% Wow. 00:08:06.610 --> 00:08:07.700 align:middle line:90% Well, thank you so much. 00:08:07.700 --> 00:08:09.075 align:middle line:84% I really appreciate you giving us 00:08:09.075 --> 00:08:11.480 align:middle line:84% an overview of some of the challenges involved 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:12.090 align:middle line:90% with policy-- 00:08:12.090 --> 00:08:12.230 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Yeah, some of the-- 00:08:12.230 --> 00:08:12.480 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: --engagement in-- 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:13.000 align:middle line:84% OMID RAHIMI: --challenges, exactly. 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:13.840 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: --Afghanistan. 00:08:13.840 --> 00:08:14.200 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:08:14.200 --> 00:08:14.740 align:middle line:90% OMID RAHIMI: Thank you. 00:08:14.740 --> 00:08:15.190 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:08:15.190 --> 00:08:16.065 align:middle line:90% SPEAKER 1: Thank you. 00:08:16.065 --> 00:08:19.680 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:23.000 align:middle line:90%